Quilling Comfort Zone

Quilling Comfort Zone

Today I’d like to talk a little about punches. Many quillers use punched flowers in with their quilled flowers. I actually bought a book on punched flowers at one of AGM’s I attended. But as I sat and read the instructions, I felt like this was a wholly different thing that what I love to do. I never even attempted one flower from that book. I’ve also seen some pretty neat leaf punches, but there are so many different ways to make quilled leaves, that I just never even tried the punched ones I do sprinkle a few small punch flowers in with my work, some simple flowers made with ¼” hole punches or heart punches. But the bulk of flowers I use are quilled.

Like everyone else, I find that sometimes I get into a rut and make the same flowers over and over in different colors. I am in my comfort zone and it is definitely easier to make what I know than it is to think up new flowers and experiment with them. That’s where books come in. On a quiet day, I make a cup of tea, and sit down with a stack of quilling books and just browse. There are all kinds of ideas and techniques to try, even in the books I am not particularly fond of. The next step is to play around with my quilling strips and try some of the “new” flowers. Some come easily and others seem like they are more trouble than they are worth. That seems like a strange thing to say considering how many roses I make. I make the kind made with rectangular pieces of 3/8” paper. Each petal is a separate piece of paper, and I fill the centers with gently curved ¼” holes. I make them using 3 different shades of the same color making the centers darker and the outer petals a lighter shade. What could be more trouble than making these roses? Well, that’s just it; I don’t consider them trouble because I do them easily and I do them well, but some of the other flowers can be a real challenge for me. For example, I love some of Claire Choi’s flowers in her book “The Art of Paper Quilling.” She has a flower on page 44 of her book which she simply calls “yellow flower wrapped in white strips”. She starts out with two yellow half moons and then places an orange four looped wheatear (or she calls it a vertical husking) between the two half moon and then wraps the whole thing with a white strip several times leaving some space at the tips of the petals so she can pinch it to a point. I LOVE this flower. There are several variations of this flower in her book. Do you think I can make one? NOT!!! This one is so far out of my comfort zone it might as well be at the South Pole. But, I will keep trying; I think I might be trying to make it too small . . . but I LIKE small flowers . . . oh well. There is another book, just out called “Quilled Border and Motifs” by Judy Cardinal. She does some really neat flowers, she calls fantasy flowers. Again . . . talk about comfort zones . . . I tend to try and make my flowers look like “real” flowers while she is having fun. Hmmm . . . I think I need to take a good look at this whole comfort zone thing. Well now that I have completely gone off on a tangent, I really didn’t talk about punches at all but I will next time. Next time I will talk about punches that I have come to love, border punches . . . in the meantime, here is another new book Quilled Wild Flowers by Janet Wilson to give you some more food for thought. Maybe I will sit down with Claire Choi at out next AGM (Annual Guild Meeting) and ask her to show me how to make those flowers.

Quilling Without a Pattern

Quilling without a Pattern


Where do I get patterns for quilling? How can I quill without a pattern? These are frequently asked questions, especially for new quillers. Most people when they look at quilling for the first time are overwhelmed by its complexity. That’s because they are looking at a finished piece not the components that make up the piece. When I taught basic quilling classes, I would always bring in a piece with a quilled border and tell my students that by the end of the class, they would be able to duplicate the border. Then I teach them the basic shapes and go back to the border to show them each coil they have just learned. They are always astounded! The border they thought was so complex is now relatively simple. I don’t teach using patterns because I never wanted my students to feel limited to what the pattern calls for. After they have learned the basic shapes, I give them each a small mat board or card and encourage them to “do their thing”. It is fascinating to see how a group of ten students will come up with ten totally different ideas.

I do demonstrate how to quill using a pattern, but I have never enjoyed trying to make my quills “fit” on a pattern. If I use a pattern at all it is just a starting point, to give me ideas. I like having lots of quilling books around for the same reason. I can be sitting, having a cup of tea, and leafing through a quilling book and sometimes a technique or combination of colors just jumps out at me, and I think “Why didn’t I think of that!” It is easy to get in a rut, with or without patterns. My best friend was looking through the new 2008 Accord calendar and told me she could pick out all of my work without looking at the names. I asked her how. (She is not a quiller; how could I have a best friend who is NOT a quiller you ask? That’s another story.) She said she could pick my work out by the colors I use, and she’s right. When I think about it, I am drawn to softer more muted tones, when I look at my sample wall; that’s what I see. But I digress. When I took on the calendar project with Accord and started contacting quillers, some of them said they couldn’t participate because they couldn’t think of something original or small enough. I am just finishing up the work on the third calendar, the 2009, and what quillers told me this time, was how could they think up something that hadn’t already been done? But you can ask 10 people to make a Christmas tree, or an angel, or a poinsettia, and as long as you DON’T give them a pattern, you will end up with very different pieces. As we have again this year.

So how do you quill without a pattern? Well some like to get an outline drawing, the kind you find in coloring books or clip art collection and then just fill in the outline with marquises or teardrops, whatever fits. I prefer to get an actual picture, in color and then try to duplicate the color texture and feel with quilling strips. When I do birds or butterflies I may use wheatears to get the look of feathers and the lacey look of butterfly wings. I usually go to books like Audubon guides to make my pieces look as realistic as possible. It is trial and error sometimes to get the “feel” of the piece, and because of that I don’t write down instructions and make patterns for the pieces I do, but it works for me.

When I am working on small things like the calendar pieces, I often use stickers for my inspiration. I am a sticker nut! I buy those great big calendars at Staples or Office Max, write my appointments on them and then as the days go by, cover each day with a sticker appropriate for that month. You can’t even imagine how many snowman stickers I have for January. I also do some scrapbooking (actually what I am doing is our entire family’s life story in matching albums, scrapbook style) and I often use stickers there. When I found my Dad after 55 years of not knowing who or where he was, I made him a scrapbook/photo album of me, growing up. You know the kind of pictures, me with no teeth, a broken arm, graduating from high school etc, and lots of stickers. Oh yes, and lots of quilling strips, because I use them to border my pages, and use border punches on them to dress them up. My Dad treasures that book, it helps him get back some of the years we lost) but here I go digressing again! My stickers can be inspirational. In the 2009 calendar, I did a little black cat sitting in a pumpkin, a penguin on ice skates, an Irish teddy bear, a witches head, and a jack-o-lantern with a handle . . . all were ideas I got from stickers. For the witches face I used green tight rolls because I wanted her to have warts. I wanted the penguin to look chubby so I used a large loose coil for his tummy and head and crescents for his back and feet. That’s what I mean about playing with the shapes to get the “feel” you want.

When I am doing borders for things like wedding invitations or baby announcements I try to incorporate the theme on the announcement. I even did a quilled Mickey Mouse on an invitation that sported Mickey and Minnie, on a Korean wedding invitation I duplicated the flowers on the cover of the invite. If the announcement has sail boats or sea shells, I work them into the border. Last year I did a border around a poem a bridegroom had written for his bride. In it he likened her to the many wild flowers she loved and voila!, I had a new wildflower design. Try it! Try thinking outside of the box. Look around you; use the many quilling books in your library or in your town library to give you inspiration. It works!

Happy Thanksgiving & Christmas Quilling

Happy Thanksgiving & Christmas Quilling

Well, here it is the week of Thanksgiving and I think this is supposed to mark the beginning of the Christmas season (although I’ve been noticing Christmas stuff in the stores since before Halloween). Oh well, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, none of the “hoopla” or “commercialization” (is that really a word?) that seems to come with Christmas. It’s a time for friends, family, fellowship and food . . . just a nice easy relaxing day. We each bring a different part of the dinner so it doesn’t end up being a monster job for any one person and we spend the whole day visiting.

However, when it comes to quilling . . . Christmas is queen! There is no end to the Christmas quilling ideas and they just keep coming. Over the years, especially when I sold my work at craft fairs, I made all kinds of Christmas ornaments. I think my first quilling was a snowflake; I still enjoy making them and hang them in the little windows on my front door. Now I make them with the gilded paper (silver on white or blue edge on white), but when I first started there was just plain old white strips and they were still beautiful. I also did free hanging ornaments like stockings, candy canes, poinsettias, and wreaths, then I started putting them on 3” circles of mat board so they wouldn’t get “lost” in the tree branches.

Somewhere along the way, I saw some of the Quill Art little dimensional figures, I thought they were adorable. (They were nowhere near as elaborate as the Jinisans I’ve talked about previously.) So I made tiny toy soldiers, Santas, angels, and Christmas mice. I put them inside of empty egg shells which I coated with diamond dust. Some I hung and others I put on little filigree stands. Everyone in my family knew that if you used an egg, you were to open it carefully, wash it out, and leave it to drain until I cut out the oval for one of my figures. Some years, I used the eggs as place cards, each egg would have the appropriate character inside and there was a little tag with a printed name. They were fun and some of my family members still have them from years ago.

Malinda Johnston used to write a newsletter called the Lake City Gazette which she sent out to her customers. One year, it had directions for a wreath made from quilled poinsettias, I loved it. It was probably about 8’ in diameter. I used it for years.

One year I got really ambitious and made dimensional Christmas trees (my original tree is pictured here on the blog and on the web site). I had no idea how I was going to make it, I just did. I will post the general instructions I wrote up for it. The fun part was decorating that little tree (it’s about 7” tall), I made little bells, ornaments, candles, stars, and roses. The one I made for my Mom (which she keeps out all year long) was decorated with Victorian fans, bows, candles, roses, and of course a tiny angel at the top.

Another year, I made a gingerbread house. I used the same pattern I used for my real gingerbread houses. (It was a family tradition while my kids were growing up, we would bake gingerbread houses and then all of my kids and their friends would decorate them . . . we would give them as gifts) I made the house out of card stock and then covered it with quilling. I don’t have a picture of it here on the blog but it is in the picture gallery of the web site and in Malinda Johnston’s Book of paper quilling. http://www.whimsiquills.com/servlet/the-template/photogallery/Page (If I were doing one today, I would use mat board as a base; it is much sturdier than card stock, but my first one was prior to our getting involved with framing and matting). Well I guess I’ve rattled on long enough about Christmas quilling. I will have to see if I have any pictures I can post (of course these were all done long before digital cameras). I hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgivng and take the time to enjoy the holiday season.

My Quilling Dream Store

My quilling “Dream store”

As all of you know by now, I have been quilling for 30+ years and I am still quilling. Over the years I have taught, lectured and demonstrated, written quilling newsletters, served as a regional representative here in the USA for the English guild, and held office in the North American Quilling Guild. Quilling is important to me and working to keep it alive is important to me. This in spite of carpal tunnel in both hands (got it fixed), trigger thumb in both hands (that one the chiropractor and acupuncture fixed), plus all of the joys the aging process brings (like bifocals and aching backs). I think I have beat the migraines and am now dealing with vertigo (acupuncture again) . . . but through it all, I managed to keep quilling. I was quilling when my hands were still in bandages after the carpal tunnel surgery. I’ve quilled with my hand in a splint. I switched my work area over to a drafting table to help my neck and back, but still kept quilling. I love it! I love the challenge of trying something new. I love the look on someone’s face when it finally hits them that they are looking at paper. I love the “light bulb” moment when a newbie realizes that THEY can quill. I love it when someone I have taught or helped inn some way creates something that is awesome!

I explained in an earlier post that when I couldn’t find supplies in the stores, I started buying wholesale, so I would have what I needed and be able to make the supplies available to other quillers. I hear quillers all the time wishing that there was a store that carried a full line of quilling supplies. If someone asked me what my “dream “quilling store would be like, this is what I would say. “I would like to shop in a store where the people actually know what quilling is and be familiar with the products they carry and be willing to answer questions. If I called the store to see if they carried a specific product, I would get to talk to a real person (knowledgeable) and not get stuck in voice mail jail where I spend 15 minutes (on my dime) listening to an automated voice telling me to press #1, #2 etc. and never get to talk to a human. I would like to be able to leave a message and get a call back within a reasonable length of time. I would like to shop in a store that carries a HUGE selection of papers, in all the colors and sizes I like to use. I don’t usually use kits, but my dream store would have lots of kits from different quillers and manufacturers, because even if you don’t quill from a kit, you can get all kinds of good ideas from them. My “dream” store would have lots and lots of books on quilling, not just one or two, because you always learn something new from a book even if it just the inspiration to try a new technique. If I were physically unable to get to my “dream” store, it would have a terrific web site with pictures of everything they carry. I would be able to go to the web site and type in the word “green” and see how many green papers they had, or click on “gilded papers” and see all of the colors available. My “dream” store would have lots of tools for me to choose from and all of the latest items available in the quilling world.”

Here’s where it gets exciting for me. At the risk of blowing my own horn, I finally have my “dream” store and it’s called http://www.whimsiquills.com/ . I’ve spent literally years building up an inventory that includes a huge variety of specialty papers, plus all of the “standard’ stuff. We not only carry papers, tools, books, and kits from the big guys like Lake City, Paplin, Quilled Creations, and J&J, but we carry kits and books from the little guys, like Quirky Quillers, Jinny Alexander, Paige Meeker, Cathy Schlim, and Bruce Yanochek) I checked every plastic bottle I could get my hands on before I decided on the soft plastic fine tip glue bottle we sell. (Ours is nice and soft so tired fingers like mine can squeeze it easily). We carry a variety of tools so you have a choice of fringers or slotted tools.

We have been working on our new web site for four months and are almost finished. I am really proud of it and would like to invite you to take a look. We have broken our product line down into every possible category to make it easy to find what you are looking for, more than 1,300 items. We have a wonderful photo gallery and a book review page, and of course a link right here to our blog. We have a ‘blow out sale” page for items that are being discontinued at really great prices. The only thing the web site doesn’t do is give me the opportunity to “chat” with you the way I can here. I’d love to hear back from you . . . maybe there is something you think I should add to my dream store. Let me know.

Quilling for Scrapbooks and Photo Albums

Quilling in Scrapbooks and Photo Albums

I am not the scrapbooking person in our family. That would be my daughter Christie, the one who manages my Ebay store, juggles a full time job, takes care of a husband and two dogs, and makes wonderful scrapbooks. A diehard Yankees fan, she did a great scrapbook to commemorate her first game at Yankee Stadium. What does this have to do with quilling? She used 1/8" navy blue quilling strips to PIN STRIPE the pages for her Yankee Scrapbook.

I, on the otherhand, have a thing about preserving our family history and passing it on to my kids. Between my husband and myself we have five children, all grown. I started keeping family photo albums years ago, you know, take the pictures and then stick them in one of those '"sticky page" things they used to call photo albums. Then a distant relative passed away and when we started going through "stuff", there were all of these pictures with no names or explanations. That's when I decided to redo the family photos. Now they look more like a family story book, with funny little annecdotes about how and when we got the dogs, graduations, weddings,silly pictures etc. After seeing my daughter's scrapbooks, I decided to dress up my photo albums as well. I use quilling strips to border most of my pages, sometimes combining different widths, sometime using border punches on the wider strips. I always have just the right colors to go with all of my pages because the strips come in so many colors. They may not have an adhesive backing like some of the border strips sold in stores, but I use my fine tip glue bottle and I'm good to go.

Several years ago, I was asked to do a taping for the DIY network on quilling for scrapbooks. That really made me think about adding quilling to my own pages. Now, I have ten volumes of family photos, and trust me, there are a lot more quilling paper borders, than there is quilling, but little by little I am going back and adding a little quilled here and there. The albums all sit on a book shelf in our living room and everytime we are all together somebody pulls one out and starts reminiscing. I have put some of my favorite pages up in the picture gallery on my "new" web site http://www.Whimsiquills.com with little blurbs about each one.

It's kind of funny, there are quillers who don't even want to hear about scrapbooks (I think scrapbooking is a lot more expensive than quilling), and when the scrabooking craze first started there were people who said you couldn't use quilling because it wasn't flat. But as scrapbooking has evolved, and more and more dimensional embellishments are being added, the interest in quilling continues to grow. At Whimsiquills, we try to encourage that growth and carry a number of kits and books geared toward scrapbooking. I think the designs in the Accord quilling calendar are perfect for scrapbooking. Twenty years ago, the quillers worried that quilling might die out, today is seems to be alive and well becoming more main stream every day. Hooray!! That's just what we wanted, and the scrapbookers are helping.

The Business of Quilling

The Business of Quilling

I am often asked about how to go about starting a quilling business. Probably the best advice I can offer is based on my own experience with Whimsiquills. I started quilling 30+ years ago as a hobby. I always enjoyed working with my hands, and quilling just seemed to suit me. I gave some of my work away as gifts and soon began to get requests from people who were willing to pay for my work. When I decided to get serious about selling my work, I tried a number of venues which helped me build up a customer base and advertise my work at the same time. Here are some thought starters:

Local Craft or Artist’s Guild-join your local or state craft guild. They often have directories of craft shows, craft malls, opportunities for demonstrations and workshops, and you are listed in their directories as a quiller.

Demonstrate- volunteer to demonstrate for your local women’s club, scouts, church groups, adult education, historical society, etc. When you demonstrate, have some of your finished work available for the audience to see, simple pieces as well as show stoppers. Encourage them to ask questions. I never charged for demonstrating, but always got paid by the new customers and orders I picked up.

Your name-put your name, addresses, and phone number on every piece you sell. Even something small like a magnet or gift card should have either a hang tag or a sticker with your information on it. I like to print a small card with an explanation of quilling on it, my company logo, and name etc. Many people who receive small items as gifts go on to become good customers, but they have to know how to find you. You can print stickers, and hang tags on your home PC.

Business cards-they are inexpensive (you can even print them yourself) and you can put lots of information on them. It’s amazing how many people will pick up a card and call later, even years later. (When I sold at craft shows, I used a double sided business card with the explanation of quilling on the back, so people would remember who I was). I also give customers magnetic business cards so they can “put me on their refrigerator”. You can purchase magnets to fit business cards at office supply stores; there is also magnetic card stock available that can go through an ink jet printer.

Press releases-if you win an award, attend a conference, give a demonstration for the historical society, and do a press release. Press releases are often followed up by newspaper interviews, sometimes including photographs of you and your work. This is wonderful FREE advertising. There is info online and in the library about writing press releases.

Mailing List- maintain a list of your customers and do periodic mailings. I usually did post card mailings, they are inexpensive, and if you print them on brightly colored card stock, your customer cant help but read it before s/he tosses it. I always get calls from customers after a mailing, sometimes all they need is a little reminder. Mailings also help keep your customer list up to date, cards may be returned with a new address from the post office, and some will be forwarded to customers who may call to give you their new mailing info. I never buy mailing lists or put anyone’s name on my list unless they ask to be included. Purchased mailing lists are a waste of money since the majority of people on them have no idea what quilling is anyway.

Home parties-I gave a very brief history of quilling, a short demonstration, showed sample pieces and took orders. I showed small things like baby frames, plaques for kid’s rooms, small floral pieces, and one or two larger pieces, like wedding invitations. The hostess received a credit of 20% of the total party order towards anything she ordered. I went home, completed the order and returned it to the hostess. Of course I got everyone’s name, address and phone number, which was the beginning of my customer list.

Local craft shows-PTA’s, churches, and local civic organizations often hold craft shows as fundraisers. The booth or table fees are nominal, and once again, it gets you out in front of the public and acquaints them with quilling. I always demonstrated at my table, which is enough to get people to stop and visit. As all quillers know, there are very few people who really know what they are looking at when they see a piece of quilling; demonstrating is a great way to educate the public. I would always have a sign up sheet for interested “potential” customers, and of course took the name and address of any one who bought.

Juried Craft Shows-these are a lot more expensive and often run for several days, some require slides or photos of your work and/or display set up. Juried shows are often well advertised, and you may be listed in press releases as a participating artist. I always demonstrated at these shows as well and had sign up sheets for “potential “ customers, as well as business cards. You can also have flyers announcing future show you are doing. It’s kind of “trial and error” deciding what you want to sell at craft shows. I found that small items sold well, but I always had some larger more expensive pieces on display as well. You also have to be able to produce enough inventory so you don’t run out of stock during the show. (Once I had a customer base, I stopped doing shows. I found the amount of time involved in traveling, setting up, doing the show, breaking down, and then doing the paperwork, took too much time away from production. But that is only my personal feeling; many quillers sell their work at shows.)

Craft Malls-once I stopped doing shows, I started selling my work through craft malls. I would rent space for a monthly fee, set up my display, and let the store staff sell my work for me. I did this for a number of years. Some craft malls are very good, others are poorly run. Your display needs to be “eye catching’, and you need to have an explanation of what quilling is that is very visible. As you know, people will stop and look at a quilled piece and not have any idea of what they are looking at. Signage is important, especially when the store staff is not available to answer questions. You really have to do your homework, (here’s where craft guilds can be helpful. They often rate craft malls) and once again have enough inventory to keep the shelves stocked. As always, my name was on every piece, and a sign up for my mailing list was available.


I no longer do craft malls, since my customer base is so large that they keep me pretty busy with custom orders. A large percentage of my work is wedding related. The quilled wedding invitation is still a best seller and brides love them. Many of my best customers received their own invitation as a gift and go on to give them to friends and family. I also do anniversary, baby, graduation and other special occasion frames. I don’t advertise at all, my customers do it for me.

Hopefully this information has been helpful; if you have questions (or ideas) feel free to give me a call. Our toll free number in the USA and Canada is 1.877.488.0894

Quilling Applications (Where do you put your quillling?)

Where do you put your quilling?

I thought, on the heels of my little blog about Megan Wilson, that maybe it was time to talk about some of the many applications quilling has. I think I may have mentioned that my first exposure to quilling was a quilled snowflake. Quilled snowflakes look so lacey and delicate and I still love to make them, hang them in my windows and give them as little gifts. But when I decided to sell my work, I realized that I wouldn’t be able to earn much selling such a small item. Over the years, I have done quilling around literally hundreds and hundreds of wedding invitations, anniversary announcements, poems and birth announcements. These became my “bread and butter” items; there was always a market for these occasions when people are looking for a very special gift. But there are so many other applications for quilling; I usually tell people the only thing that limits them is their own imagination! Here a just a few things that I have tried or seen others try.

I still have a quilled switch plate in the Whimsiquills room that is almost twenty years old. It is a fairly simple design on a wooden heart shaped switch plate that I bought in a craft store and painted to match the woodwork in the room.

I had quilling around a mirror mounted on a wood background with a towel bar underneath in my bathroom for years until just a couple of years ago when we remodeled the bathroom. We did knock a few of the quills off from time to time, but I just replaced them . . . it was kind of neat!
I designed and quilled a chess board to go with the chess men I made from a kit. Once I made the men, I felt they had to go with a quilled board. That design is available in Malinda Johnston’s Book of Paper Quilling on pages 105-106.

Dimensional or free standing quilling can be challenging but very exciting. Jinny Alexander’s Jinisans, my tea cups and saucer, and Christmas tree all pictured here on the blog are just a few examples.

Quilled greeting cards are very popular, especially when you look at the prices for greeting cards in card shops! Why not make a really special card with your personal touch? Several years ago (2003) I did some quilled eggs and Easter cards for Family Circle magazine at their request. They sent me some colored cards with oval cut outs etc. I got a bunch of calls asking where to buy those cards; Family Circle told me they had purchased them from a little boutique in New York. Now those kinds of cards are available in craft stores and on the internet Combine your quilling with rubber stamping, embossing, Pergamano (parchment craft), and embroidery to make some very unique greeting cards. I know others have done this as well, make a removable quilled Christmas ornament part of the greeting card. I make matching quilled gift tags to give to all of my customers with their orders.

One of my quilling friends, Rick Whitman, loves to do counted cross stitch. She will stitch an appropriate Bible verse, then mat it and quill on the mat and frame the whole thing for a very special gift item.

One of the more recent applications is the use of quilling in scrap books.
Quilled jewelry, I’ve made quilled pins, earrings and stick pins. There are a couple of kits and books with jewelry designs, and we are including quilled jewelry in the 2009 Accord quilling calendar. Of course the Quilling calendar (2008 now available) was a really unique application for quilling. The first calendar was done for 2007; each page has a quilling design, the directions are printed on the back of the page, and the strips are on the bottom of the page.

And last but not least we have the Megan Wilson application just in case you missed it! http://www.meganwilson.com/projects.php

I would love to hear what everyone else is doing, I’m sure I couldn’t have possibly covered everything. Share your ideas!

FYI there are two new posts on the Whimsiquills blog, one about a very interesting artist and another on the many applications of quilling. Also for those concerned about the 2007/2008 calendars I have put in a call to Accord publishing, but I really think the two calendars on the web are actually same calendar, the 2008; (even though one picture shows the 2007 box. I was told that the leftover 2007 calendars were destroyed which upset me more than a little.) The publisher has a suggested retail price ($14.99 for the 2008 calendar), but anyone selling them can charge whatever they choose. Mega calendar is just one of the distributors that Accord (Andrews McMeil) sells to. If I find out anything different, I will be sure to post to the groups.